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#176671 - 05/06/08 07:21 PM Re: Anu's on Encarta!! [Re: wofahulicodoc]
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 11496
Once again proving that being correct does not necessarily eliminate ambiguity.
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#176673 - 05/06/08 07:48 PM
Pooh-Bah
Registered: 08/13/05
Posts: 1623
Loc: R'lyeh
Sorry, I wasn't referring to the r in parfit, but where the c /k/ came from. It's not there in parfit, though it was in the earlier Latin perfectus, and that's why the letter was inserted, silently at first, and subsequently modifying the pronunciation. There are two ways words come into a language: either they are inherited from the earlier version of the language, or they are borrowed from a different language. In the former case, sound changes tend mostly to be regular, but in the latter, anything may happen, and often does.
I was in a hurry to miss the brunt of commuter traffic this morning, and was a bit abrupt in my posting.
To try to get a handle on what happened, we'd probably have to do the following: (1) see what any earlier researchers had disclosed; (2) track down the early citations to determine the actual MS spellings (and not the sometimes corrected spelling of diplomatic texts); (3) determine whether it only came in through one source (sometimes these words come in through several, unrelated borrows); and (4) compare the sound change with other, similar, and contemporary borrowings. That would be a beginning anyway.
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#176674 - 05/06/08 07:51 PM
Pooh-Bah
Registered: 08/13/05
Posts: 1623
Loc: R'lyeh
By you, I meant not ThePook (nand me), but scholars and others who read Middle English authors regularly.
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#176677 - 05/06/08 08:46 PM
Pooh-Bah
Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 2007
Loc: Netherlands, the Hague
Example: 2 sentences from the Knight's Tale
Middle English : Ther was a duc that highte theseus;
Modern Dutch : Er was een hertog die heette Theseus
Modern english: There was a duke whose name was Theseus:
Middle English: And eek hir yonge suster emelye.
Modern Dutch: En ook haar jonge zuster Emilie
Modern English: And, too, her younger sister, Emily.
The modern Dutch is a correct translation of the modern english.
_________________________
above all shadows rides the sun (JRRT)
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#176678 - 05/06/08 09:35 PM
addict
Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 592
Loc: Tasmania
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#176681 - 05/06/08 09:55 PM Jackie 
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 03/15/00
Posts: 9620
Loc: Louisville, Kentucky
Modern Dutch : Er was een hertog die heette Theseus
Modern english: There was a duke whose name was Theseus:
Middle English: And eek hir yonge suster emelye.
Modern Dutch: En ook haar jonge zuster Emilie
Modern English: And, too, her younger sister, Emily.
Wow, that's really cool--thanks for the effort! :-)
Once again proving that being correct does not necessarily eliminate ambiguity. Indeed. I was wondering where I'd gone wrong.
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#176683 - 05/06/08 10:02 PM
Pooh-Bah
Registered: 08/13/05
Posts: 1623
Loc: R'lyeh
Probably, as it's a Dutch name. Cf. German Herzog is the same as Dutch hertog, both of which mean literally 'army-leader': Heer 'army' and ziehen 'to draw, pull': German Zug 'train', English tug, tow, Latin dux, ducis, 'leader' (whence English duke): all from PIE *deuk- 'to lead' (link).
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#176693 - 05/06/08 11:18 PM
member
Registered: 11/24/07
Posts: 112
Once again proving that being correct does not necessarily eliminate ambiguity. Indeed. I was wondering where I'd gone wrong.
Nobody said anything about you being wrong. I think my English learning includes now learning that English learners shouldn't try little jokes here because they will be dissected and dessicated in the process.
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#176696 - 05/07/08 04:23 AM
addict
Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 592
Loc: Tasmania
We might dissect you but I don't think we'll bother drying you out for later consumption...
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#176699 - 05/07/08 07:17 AM
Pooh-Bah
Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 2007
Loc: Netherlands, the Hague
Probably, as it's a Dutch name. Cf. German Herzog is the same as Dutch hertog, both of which mean literally 'army-leader': Heer 'army' and ziehen 'to draw, pull': German Zug 'train', English tug, tow, Latin dux, ducis, 'leader' (whence English duke): all from PIE *deuk- 'to lead' (link).
A whole legion of Hartog, Hertog, Hertogs, Den Hertog / Hertogh, and more spelling variations .
Maybe when Napoleon Bonaparte forced the population to choose a family name other than "son of "or "daughter of" ( Jan Pieter's zoon Coen) some people chose to promote themselves to Duke, (Hertog) or Count (De Graaf) or King( De Koning).
Others took this new law as a joke and came out with ridiculous names , such as "Naaktgeboren" (born nude)"Nooitgedacht"(never thought of) and more nonsensical stuff; still in use till this day._________________________
above all shadows rides the sun (JRRT)
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